Krisis Perak : Dialog Diantara M.Kulasegaran & Tan Sri Ramli Ngah Talib

Cebisan-cebisan dialaog diantara M.Kulasegaran (Ahli Parlimen Ipoh Barat) dan Tan Sri Ramli Ngah Talib (Bekas MB Perak & Bekas Speaker Dewan Rakyat) pada 21 Feb 2009.

Kulasegaran: Tan Sri, you know what’s happening in Perak and you're the former menteri besar.What saddens me and many Malaysians is the grab of power. How can we, in this modern age and with our democratic system, ever agree to this kind of thing?Doesn't the Barisan Nasional respect the wishes of the voters? I'm astonished, I'm shocked.

Ramli: Well in any discussion on the Perak crisis I think we have to relate it to the various responsibilities of the various institutions to get a clear picture. I’m afraid I was in the midst of it — before the swearing-in ceremony, I was in the convoy. And we were stopped, stones were thrown at my car, and others too. And when we came back, this crowd also showed their hostility to us by showing the (soulssoles of their) feet and shouting "Takde Otak" (no brains) and “Zalim” (cruel). Now this shows a lack of understanding of the situation. Earlier I said we must relate it to the responsibilities of the various institutions. Now to me, this is a case of the sultan exercising his powers under the constitution of Perak. That is to appoint the menteri besar from among those, who in his opinion, which he understands it, who has the confidence of the assembly. When there was this defection, BN had the majority in the of this assembly was given to the BN and the sultan appointed one from among them to beof BN to the MB. This is provided under the constitution. This is his duty, to appoint. So, going back to the gist of your question, well now it doesn't look nice. I agree, it doesn't look nice for the BN government to form a government through defection. I agree this is not the best way of forming a government., this is not the best way. But which party, that is not in power, which has been given the power through defection, would reject that?

Kulasegaran: But Tan Sri I think we will not disagree with the fact that any party also should be more than ready to go and test its popularity with the masses. Don't you think so? You have been elected before, and I'm a third term MPmember of parliament, one of the things that is most important and dearest to us are the voters, and the voters have given a very clear mandate. In fact 54 per cent of the voters in Perak in the 2008 election voted in favour of Pakatan, only 46 per cent for through Barisan. It’s so clear. And I think even if they have taken power, don't you think they should have said “Okay, let's be gentlemen, and let's go face the masses, the voters.” Why are they reluctant and why are they scared?

Ramli: Well I think parties fight blistering campaigns in elections, two weeks, maybe more than that. And they spend money, energy. But when you have, on a platter, sort of, through defection, I think this is also legitimate. Not the best way to form the government, but it is legitimate.

Kulasegaran: So you're saying even if you form the government by immoral means, as long as I come into power, the means doesn't matter? By defections, party-hopping, a culture abhorred in this country, just because I want to be in power?

Ramli: No, it is a legitimate means, though it’s not the best way. And I don't think it is immoral. For defections, we have experienced this before in 1994 in Sabah, and through the defection of the PBS assemblyman the BN was in power, and then from there they consolidated their power, nearly for nearly 14 years? Then after they consolidated their power, the BN government in Sabah, has never experienced stability as they have experienced now.

Kulasegaran: That means Tan Sri is saying basically that party-hopping is okay. That under a banner, standing under DAP or BN, and after getting elected under the DAP or BN banner, I am no longer responsible to my constituents and to the party, but to the party that can corrupt me or shower me with gifts and new unnatural love?

Ramli: Well I don't know about that but...

Kulasegaran: Well that's what people are writing online, on the Internet, I think it is vividly clear...Ramli: Well I don't know about showering of gifts.Kulasegaran: I mean where in this country do you have executive councillors leaving office to cross over to another party? Never, unless there is something magical. You see when people contest against Barisan it's because of certain principles and beliefs, Barisan is an arch enemy of these people. Suddenly the numbers game is so important where one, two can change the government, the principles are no longer that important. They can jump and say I can now sleep with my enemy? How?

Ramli: Well I don't see it as immoral as such, because Pakatan Rakyat also accepted somebody who jumped. (Datuk) Nasaruddin (Hashim) from Bota, he was accepted. If it had been a determining factor whether the Pakatan Rakyat formed a government or not, then they will have formed a government with a majority of one. So they have accepted this, so is this immoral as such?

Kulasegaran: But in the case of Nasaruddin it is a bit different. When he hopped to Pakatan Rakyat, he said ‘I have lost confidence, I don’t want to be in Umno’, that is one aspect of it. But he has been a different type of assemblyman, Tan Sri, he was able to go back, even before defecting, to the people in Bota and tell them “I'm going to defect”. And number two, after defecting there was a 10,000-people gathering in Bota, in the presence of (Datuk Seri) Anwar (Ibrahim) and other party leaders, explaining to his constituents. In the case of three people who jumped, they were nowhere to be seen, even their shadows. That means there is something different.
…………………………………………………………………………

Ramli: In the sense when an assemblyman or an MP defects, in a sense, I agree, it is a betrayal of the trust of some of the voters that they have given to him. But when you pick a candidate, let's (say we) pick a very popular candidate. People will support him, not the party. Probably 70 per cent of the support is because of his popularity, maybe 30 because of the party machinery. So in that sense, when he defects, not that many people will feel betrayed, people go with him wherever he goes, because he is popular. But in cases of say, very new candidates, where the party machinery is more important than the candidate then 70 per cent because of party machinery, of the manifesto and policies, then I agree that most of the people will feel betrayed if he crosses over. So there are many reasons, not just one. He jumped, the two probably jumped, I heard reports that they were very disheartened by the leadership, so they had reasons for doing so.

Kulasegaran: Well I'm not surprised that this started with the leadership, if someone is charged for corruption and your case is hanging on your head and you're in court, and all kinds of promises have been made to you, and true enough the case has been postponed, wouldn't anybody think of doing that?This is another fact, like what Dr Mahathir himself said, “how can you take this kind of rotten eggs into your party?”We just passed at the last sitting of Parliament, the Malaysian Anti-corruption Commission Bill, what are we trying to show to the country? Here I'm trying to say that we want to wipe out corruption or condemn these wrongdoings yet because I want to be in power, it doesn't matter if the man is dirty or has a lot of dirt on him, he is okay. Tan Sri I just want to differ with you when you say 70 per cent support the person and only 30 per cent the party.

Ramli: I said sometimes. Sometimes.

Kulasegaran: Well I think in this country it is the reverse, in fact 70 per cent (support) the party or more, and very little on the person. It's the party that people go for. Because many a time when people have left a party and contested as independents, they have not only lost, many times they have lost their deposit. It is not the individual. I know of people who have gone for four, five elections, got 15-25,000 majority every time. But when they left and contested on their own, they cannot even garner 500 votes.

Ramli: Well what I said was specific, and what you are saying is general. There are candidates who are so popular, that his popularity accounts for nearly 70 per cent of the votes.

Kulasegaran: I take exception to the rule.

……………………………………………………………………………

Kulasegaran: Whatever it is, the bottom line is they are rotten eggs. So there were two rotten eggs in Pakatan Rakyat, so BN felt that they would take the rotten eggs because now they are golden eggs.Ramli: Well to them it is not rotten eggs. They said they defected because of certain, valid reasons. And then the BN accepted them. Who doesn't want that? I mean, you know, you fight 20, 30, 40 years for power and when you are given power like that wouldn't you grab it?Kulasegaran: Well power was seized undemocratically, and so wrongly.

Ramli: It is not wrong here, you know, it is just not a good way to form a government, but I don't think it is immoral.

Kulasegaran: Don't you agree with me that it is not too late to call now for elections, that (Datuk Dr) Zambry (Abd Kadir) and (Datuk Seri Mohammad) Nizar (Jamaluddin) would agree, let's go and let the people decide? It is not for anybody singularly to decide who should be in government. People believe there is a black hand behind all this, they say (Datuk Seri) Najib (Razak) is the one because he aspires to be prime minister very soon, and somehow by legal or illegal means I will have the state government, and Perak is very important in the whole jigsaw puzzle.

Ramli: Look when I came here, I just want to look at what are the responsibilities, the ethics of crossovers and so on. I'm not willing to go beyond, because then it would just all be speculative and there would be no bounds. That's all speculative.

Kulasegaran: Whatever it is, the bottom line is they are rotten eggs. So there were two rotten eggs in Pakatan Rakyat, so BN felt that they would take the rotten eggs because now they are golden eggs.

Ramli: Well to them it is not rotten eggs. They said they defected because of certain, valid reasons. And then the BN accepted them. Who doesn't want that? I mean, you know, you fight 20, 30, 40 years for power and when you are given power like that wouldn't you grab it?

Kulasegaran: Well power was seized undemocratically, and so wrongly.

Ramli: It is not wrong here, you know, it is just not a good way to form a government, but I don't think it is immoral.

Kulasegaran: Don't you agree with me that it is not too late to call now for elections, that (Datuk Dr) Zambry (Abd Kadir) and (Datuk Seri Mohammad) Nizar (Jamaluddin) would agree, let's go and let the people decide? It is not for anybody singularly to decide who should be in government. People believe there is a black hand behind all this, they say (Datuk Seri) Najib (Razak) is the one because he aspires to be prime minister very soon, and somehow by legal or illegal means I will have the state government, and Perak is very important in the whole jigsaw puzzle.

Ramli: Look when I came here, I just want to look at what are the responsibilities, the ethics of crossovers and so on. I'm not willing to go beyond, because then it would just all be speculative and there would be no bounds. That's all speculative.